BeA Bar Italian Wine and Deli, Copenhagen

Published on 10 May 2025 at 19:24

Interview with Pamela Garbarino– co-owner (with Raffaele Naitza) of BeA Bar Italian Wine and Deli in Orestad, Copenhagen 26/04/2025.

So, Pamela, tell me a little bit about yourself and perhaps your partner too and how you became interested in wine and learned about wine.

Well neither Raffaele or I come from winemaking families, our parents never made wine but as always happens in Italy if your parents don’t make wine you will for sure have relatives or friends who do.  Friends of my grandparents made wine and we spent lots of time together. Raffaele has a godfather who has been making wine with his brothers for years, and he is still helping us. So for both of us it is something we have observed and experienced since we were children. And these people have helped us, their knowledge on the subject and their advice have been invaluable. This is the context where we grew up, then later we had some different experiences, in particular in restaurants and service. I come from a small village Zoagli, between Portofino and  Cinque Terre    which was (and still is now) a popular tourist area and famous for the “heroic viticulture”, and also the food. These vineyards stand on terraces or steps that climb sheer rock faces about 400 metres; viticulture here requires a good amount of extra work. The daily work in the vineyards is almost done completely manually. And Raffaele too. Raffaele comes from Cagliari, southern Sardinia, which is another area well known for its coasts, nature, food and wine. Sardinia has a long and rich history in wine production and has a rather rich heritage of native grape varieties. So I started working really early. When I was 15. We were well acquainted with the hotels and restaurant of the area and then also went to study in a cooking school. I also had a restaurant with my family and this required me to acquire more experience and knowledge about the wines of our land, not just the food. After that I went to university and then worked in Human Resources for a long time.

For Raffaele it was almost the same path because he went to university in Milan, but he also worked in a lot of restaurants in Milan and attended a cooking school. He worked in the food industry for many years. In Milan you can find everything, I mean, it's a really big city with all the finest wine or food. Even though after university, for several years we worked in other fields, in this context and experiences, we were able to deepen our knowledge of the territory and the close relationship between wine and food.

So we are passionate about our wine business because wine was intrinsic to the way we grew up and our life experience. And this really helps us to define our concept of service of wine and food. When Raffaele and I met we started to think about this project and the focus on our land and our way to be Italian, and then we decided to do it. Almost three years ago, we decided to move to Denmark and Copenhagen. This is our background, which is probably not what you expected. We haven't got a formal or technical background in wine. But we have a really great context and life experience with wine. I believe that all this stimulated and pushed us to create our project, our idea of transmitting the typical Italian hospitality, passion, and ancient traditions of our territory.

You came here three years ago, is that right? And so why Copenhagen?

Yes, we started three years ago, but we started with a web shop. We came here after we’d both visited twice. But we just knew Denmark, a Scandinavian country and we were fascinated about the north and because we had a lot of thought about that we said OK, we are going to bring our culture, our wine, food.

Should we go to Spain maybe? No, because Spain has also a great wine culture, it's not like Italy but has a similar wine culture and we need something different and somewhere we can make a difference. Scandinavia, Denmark are completely different.

Yes, and there's no long history of wine here at all, so…

No, but they have a lot of wines from everywhere. Especially from France, Germany, but not just Europe. Also from Lebanon, from South Africa, everywhere. But they don't really have their own wine culture. I mean, not an old culture.

So we decided we will try in Denmark and we started a web shop. We had no support when we did this, no relationships with anybody, so once we decided to come here, we had to think about everything. We started to understand there are a lot of rules and regulations about alcohol, about wine and also that people buy beer and wine, but they are not so open with the new things. They just (want) know what they know, the popular well-known wines. But we were bringing our wine, so this was really hard. We had to build relationships here and this is what we are doing now. Because we have lots of idea about what we can do but we need time to create, to find good relationships for it to work. We started in 2022 with a web shop, for two years we participated in various events related to wine and various markets that were organized both in Copenhagen and in other cities in Denmark. This was the only way to start making ourselves known, to let people taste our wines, which were practically unknown here in Denmark and for us it was above all an opportunity to get to know and understand the Danish market, above all the relationship that the Danes have with wine and their approach to wines that we didn't know at all. From this we learned a lot and realised that Copenhagen was probably the best place to start and to put our effort and money and work into, because Copenhagen is more international and people are more open minded and prepared to try new things. But we had to experience places outside the big cities, and we found it hard. Some people were interested, but most were just not interested to learn about what we had to offer.

So we decided to start from Copenhagen and after some time, we found this place. (Finally at the end of July 2024 we opened our BeA bar. We thought, studied and built this place all by ourselves). We wanted somewhere to reflect us and our roots

There was nothing here in Orestad three years ago, right? For everybody who has moved here everything is new for them. Do you think this helped to establish the business? Because even if the Danish don’t readily embrace the new, when you're in a situation where you move to a new place to live and every shop is new, then you must be open to try new things, and so that's an advantage?

This was the risky, but also the exciting, part of the of the decision, of the choice we made with everything being new. We had this empty place and we had to think about everything. If you look at the other buildings (winery/shops) here they are almost the same, but we are doing something different. We started working here inside to fit the shop out and people walking past could see us, we didn’t cover it up and wait till we opened. And because people could see in, it made them all really curious, because we didn’t put anything outside, any signs, we were just working inside. And people would knock on the door and ask what we were doing and we started to develop relationships while we were working and painting and so on. So we could explain to these people what we were doing This was something people are not used to as people here normally cover everything up until they have something big and beautiful to show.

And one of our points of strength is to create relationship with the people who live here, even if this is a place where people are moving frequently, we can develop those relationships because we are local, we are not in the centre. It’s not a touristic experience that we are looking for, but local relationships.

You're talking a lot about relationships and you know when I think about this, it’s the heart of the wine experience, wine is the relationship drink. It's a drink that, more than anything else, is about family, it's about friends, it’s a social drink.

Yes. For us, it's conviviality. This is the reality, it's sharing. We offer a genuine Italian experience, based on conviviality, sharing culture, territory and tradition. It is a place that reflects us, that represents who we are and where we come from. But at the same time it is a welcoming place open to everyone. Where anyone alone or in company can spend time to enjoy a glass of wine or accompany it with food or have a chat and learn something more about the wines and the stories behind them.

So would you say that that really as much as you are selling wine, you're actually not just selling wine, you're sharing yourselves?

Yes. This is what we are trying to do from the first time, but not just ourselves and what we are bringing from our life now but also our roots and our way. Our way of living, our traditions of wine and food. It’s the style of living of sharing of creating moments together. And this place is born from this. It’s an important part of the wine too, because this wine comes from producers we have a personal relationship with. Every bottle has a deep meaning and every producer.

Talk to me some more about that. Like, the first thing that I noticed when I walked past, when we got off the bus and walked through the park to come here and saw the sign. We looked outside and saw, this is a very focused wine list. Your sign just says Italian wine but when you look at the wines on the list it’s not really what we think about as Italian, it’s just a tiny and not very well-known part of Italy. So tell me about the wines that you select and what they mean?

We have the sign saying Italian wine because we have to identify ourselves to the customer in a way they can understand. If we put Liguria for example they won't even know where it is. So Italian is just a way to say, OK, we are Italian, but if you want to come in and discover we are not, maybe the classical Italian stereotype. You’re not selling Chianti or Montepulciano or Barolo…And a lot of people come in and ask me for that because they are the most popular.  

This is what we intend to do. It probably reflects what we are, we are working on that. It’s just me and Raffaele so we decided to start from our region, the place we know more, we have to start there, from our experience. We have a lot of experience because for many years we lived in different regions of Italy like Piemonte for work. Throughout this time we have always been passionate about wine and we knew of other wine makers so probably in the future we will try to develop our stock, our model. But always with the same ideas. With the same vision of sharing our culture. The wine we have now, from our region, all the producers have something in common. And this is why we decided to start with Liguria and Sardinia, but these are not just all the wines you can find in Liguria and Sardinia, this is just the beginning for us. But the place is small. You can see and probably we will keep some milestone wines in the shelves but we want to grow.  I mean we are just at the beginning of the journey. So in the next month we are going to change because all of these wines are from a certain restricted area of our region, and are almost all of these wines are from local native grapes. I also like the idea that when people come here, they ask me for the table and ask if I have this, I can say “No, but I can show you something else you might like.” And they enjoy discovering something new because just drinking the same international varieties is quite boring.

Yes, exactly, that's what I enjoyed coming here the first time is that you have local varieties, they're not international. I can drink international varieties anywhere. The other thing I've noticed, I've tried now only three of your wines, and they're all quite different, but they're all flavourful and you know when I think about commercial large volume commercial production, Italian wines, my criticism is that very often they are not flavourful or interesting. They’re all the same, they’re boring. Your rosato was not the global standard pale neutral Provence style rose, it’s had some time on skins, it’s got flavour and character. So you’re offering something distinctive.

Yes, and it changes every year. This is what we are trying to do. We grew up with this and for us wine like this is part of everyday life, it’s our context. I mean, I totally agree with you, this is really the point we are making here. Our producers are small local producers When you view on the map, Liguria is a thin long bridge and when you move from the east to the west it changes so the native vines are different and change. The same for Sardina from the north to the south.

So we have just started with these, but we actually also have some wines from the north of Italy which is very good. The reason is because this is a really small producer. She's a woman. With her husband, they have just one grape - Glera. She inherited some vines from her father and then she got married and put together with her husbands’ as a family business. Really just a few bottles, two kinds of wine and one is the real DOCG Prosecco from a restricted area and the other made in the same way as Champagne with the second fermentation in the bottle. She really embraced our approach to things. We decided to start from when we had the web shop. We started just from Liguria and from just a few producers from Sardinia. But then we decided to add Prosecco because customers kept asking if we had Champagne. And I say no, but I have Prosecco, perhaps you don’t know it but try it and see if you like it. We are deeply linked to our producers because everyone brings his own history and tradition, and it’s not a commercial relationship, it’s personal, not like the big shop.

You have a personal relationship with the producers of these wines, you know them personally?

Yes. We work closely with small producers who are committed to preserving their land and reviving nearly forgotten native grape varieties. These wines carry the stories of their territories — unique, authentic, and deeply human. They all share a deep passion for winemaking, are rooted in the hard work of the land, and carry ancient — in some cases centuries-old — knowledge and techniques, sometimes combined with a more modern spirit of research and intuition. They have a profound connection to, and respect for, the land where they work. You can feel these values in every bottle they produce — it’s what makes each wine unique and different from the next.   Sharing the same values and vision is essential to us.   And as you said before you can find the high-volume wines everywhere, but this is not what we are going to do, because our approach reflects who we are. It’s what we really like and what we can really explain and in a certain way teach. And people can enjoy a good glass of wine if it is not so popular and in every moment of the day without wearing nice clothes, just relaxing and enjoying and tasting. And it was really nice that when we started here we had some people came and we started to explain.  Some people are more curious, others just want to taste. We have many conversations, but now it's been nine months and it's nice to see that people start coming again and again as customers. Maybe they already taste some of the different wines and now they are becoming more particular “Today I need this”. They know exactly what they want, and they cannot find this wine anywhere else. They might say “I need something different, I have this dinner…”

And also other people who’ve been on vacation in Sardinia or in Liguria, and they tried a particular wine and now they miss it and when they come here they are enjoying their memories for the holiday. And they come here because they said it's a really cosy place and I like to feel “at home” and really relax, even if sometimes it can be crowded because it's small but it's always really so cosy. This is satisfying for us because it means that while it is still hard we are making progress. If we keep on working on that and also improving our way to do this, because we cannot just stop here, we can do something more and grow more. And it’s nice that people just taste the wine and enjoy them.

So tell me about one or two of your own experiences with wine that really stand out for you.

At the moment we started to do this, the first thing we had to do is arrange producers and we started from one of the Ligurian ones. In Italy the Ligurian people are known to be like, closed and a bit gruff. At the end they are really welcoming and beautiful people, but it's like they have a hard shell. And this producer is really small and she is located in this little village on the hill called Missano on the eastern side of Liguria  which is really nice),  but it's not so easy to reach.

During the Medieval Ages, Benedictine monks choose the steeps hills of Missano to found their Abbey at Conio and dedicate to the cultivation of the vine on its sunlit slopes. In the same place, she continues this centuries-old heritage producing wines of the noteworthy quality of the Portofino Doc, as Ciliegiolo Doc OR Bianchetta Doc and many more.

She’s a producer just working there so when we went there to explain our project, she was surprised and probably she didn't immediately realize why we wanted to import her wines and what our project entailed – she was just a small producer making wine for local people. I'm not sure if you know, but in Italy there is a distinction in commerce between a small producer and a big one. A small producer can produce an average of 1000 hectolitres per year. They have different regulations to larger producers.

It was so hard because we decided to start with her, but she didn't know how to export so we had to manage the whole process of importing to Denmark.

You do all that directly yourself. Do you have to use a clearance agent for the customs?

No. We did everything by ourselves. Raffaele puts his name on that, because it was really complicate. In Italy we have a classification of something that doesn't exist here, and here they also have lots of rules and regulations.

So we had a difficult time, but she was interested. She said that Ohh, she wants to do it but she has to deal with bureaucracy in Italy and it can be really hard. People who you have to deal with are not prepared to help. And it was difficult she would call us and say I can’t do it. This was just the start and it was so difficult and she always called us We can’t do it, and I said “we will do it”. And after months of struggling we made it.

So just imagine this as part of our starting history.. And then the other like I say, is related to our business. We have a really strong relationship with our Producers and one of them is in Sardinia. He's really, really helpful, because we can just discuss and he is always available for us with suggestions. He has years and years of making wine and he ran the wine cooperative in the centre of Sardinia. His tradition started with his grandfather who passed it to his father and then to him. Then in 2005 he bought the social winery in Mamoiada, center of  Sardinia, decided to improve their activity. He wanted to let everyone know and appreciate their wine and all the sacrifices made to produce it during the years. The social winery of Mamoiada, like many others in Sardinia, was built with public funds with the aim of promoting the production and marketing of their local wine. The winery began production in 1960, initially selling wine in bulk.

So he knows a lot. Actually we have, and he specialised in Cannonau, but we have three kinds of Cannonau, always from the same producer, but all are different. This reminds me what you said before, because every bottle has a really different character, a different personality. So he just produces Cannonau, three completely different ones.

And we said yes, I like it. So he helped us because it was really hard at the beginning and we said, prices are really high for wine in Copenhagen, even if the quality sometimes is not OK. And we said we still haven’t had a lot of people come to our bar and people say “why are the prices so cheap?” And we spoke to them about this and explained we want to do the wine for everybody not just for the wealthy. It's not always sophisticated things. Oh, yes, there are some beautiful expensive wines but there are other wines that are also really good and you can just taste in a simple and easy way.

So we were struggling, and we said, “here people are used to spend a lot of money to have a good wine. They saw that our wine is not so expensive, so they don't want to taste it because they think that it’s not good.”

And so we spoke with him about that. And he said OK and he said they don't have the culture or tradition of accessible wine. But be patient, work on that because he said you can just sell 1-2 bottles for a high price, but you don't want this. You want people to understand. Just give them time and give them the way, the chance to understand, work on that and so give the food and the wine at the right price. This is also why we decided to open a place where we could interact personally with customers

I understand exactly what you're talking about. Good wine should be accessible to everybody. That's really your customer proposition.

Yes

Can you think of an occasion with a customer then where they might have been a little bit dubious and after they've tried your wine they've really got excited.

Oh yes, it happened from the beginning. For example, I had someone used to drinking Riesling or something else and I said no, we don't have this but we can find a wine you will like. So I start to get him to taste something and explain and try to understand what he likes and then he says “give me your best wine”. I responded “I don’t have a best one. All the wines you see here, I like them, they are all the best”. And I ask him to tell me more about what he likes and I pour tastes for him and he starts tasting and  “Oh ok I like this one” and he takes the bottle. So this is one of the best experiences. Another one was this couple and they came two or three times and she was drinking white wine – she tasted and chose. But he always drinks beer. After the first time I asked him. “Can I make you taste some wine? Can we try? To see if we can find one for you.” He says “no, I want this”. I cajole him, “can we just try” and he says “I’m not ready yet. They came another time and then another and this time he agrees to try and he found a wine he enjoys and started to drink this wine. So this was nice.

But also it's really nice that there are a lot of Italian people from here and when they say oh my wine I couldn't find so it's so nice. Ohh my food. I look at this bottle, this reminds me of home. Just for Italian people.

So you’ve got a new wine business, me too! But the prognosis for the industry is a little bit challenging at the moment. When we look at the statistics, wine consumption globally is falling. Especially among young people, my generation, we still drink wine, but young people are not drinking alcohol so much at all. And when they do drink alcohol, it's more likely to be craft for you or gin. And then we have. The Who seems to have been, you know, the World Health organisations seems to have been hijacked by the temperance societies, and they're issuing warnings about alcohol that are not actually based on evidence. How do you make sure that your business has a sustainable future?

It's true because sometimes I have more aged people than young.

The consumption of alcohol is shifting, but for me, I don't see it like a crisis, but I think we should be open to change our approach to wine so to make it more appealing and also sustainable because I think young people are probably more focussed on sustainability of the land and processes than we are. So we need to focus more on the respect of the land and of the people – everything is linked – in relation to wine.

But also teaching people a different way to approach wine as something for all people not just the sophisticated. (Creating a space where wine is part of a lifestyle, not just consumption and help people discover wine in a deeper, more mindful way.) At the same time paying attention to the quality rather than the quantity and the wines that have history and speak of place, the local wines that are being revived now after neglect, that are part of a local context. Instead of chasing trends, I focus on offering wines with soul, supporting sustainable practices and cultural heritage. This approach resonates with people who seek meaning and connection in what they consume. This is what we try to do.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

Awesome. I love what you are doing here and wish you every success!

 

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